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#48658 10/04/02 03:25 PM
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I am a little confused about the location of the lower dantien. Master Lin says it is deep behind the navel, however everything else I have studied to date, has placed it below the navel. (approximately 3 finger widths below)

I'm not sure what to make of this. I prefer to feel it below my navel, but this may simply be because I have trained in that way.

Anyone have any comments on this?

Michael


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Hi Michael,
I have seen both references too. Below the navel, behind the navel. I think of it as an area, as opposed to a more limited, point. If you cut someone open and tried to find it, it would, of course, not be there. It is an energetic center in the energy body. I also envision a different place, when Master Lin says, at the end of a meditation, regarding placing the energy pill "deep" behind the navel. I experience more or deeper space in behind there! As you are focusing on the energy ball spinning faster and getting smaller, already in lower dan tien, this place deep behind the navel is somewhere else.Perhaps another dimensional opening, if that is the right word.. Does anyone ever see other energy pills stored there? It seems so to me , as a glimpse.. I feel an "area" as the lower dan tien. It would be hard to describe it, as how I feel it,,,,maybe small melon size, ?? sometimes bigger, sometimes smaller... In general it seems to occupy both areas below and behind the navel. As it exists, other dimensionally, perhaps the reference points mentioned, just get you there, as opposed to literally aligning with a single physical point in the physical body. When I concentrate there, my third eye/ inner vision seems to take over, which is a shift into a different reference of self. I know with other meditations/exercises, Master Lin refers us to areas, where as other methods I've seen mention specific points. Like bottom of the torso, versus huiyin point.

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Thanks Gallen. I don't visualize very well, so I don't see the energy pills, but I do have a pretty highly developed kinesthetic sense and feel the area "behind and below" the navel and actually sense it as you said, as "a dimensional opening" into the energetic realm.

As getting into that energetic awareness is so critical to all this work, I was somewhat disturbed by trying to relocate the area!! In retrospect I realize how silly that was but I am working on being less rebellious and a better student. Guess it backfired this time.

I will go back to trusting my sense of where the dantian is and if I ever get to meet master Lin, I'll ask his opinion. Wouldn't it be wonderful if he would occasionally visit the board and pick out some questions that are interesting to him and answer them?

I do appreciate all your help and especially your contant reminders to all of us to get out of our heads and trust the process.

Be Well,
Michael


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Michael,
I was reading some Taoist information yesterday, that brought me back to your question about behind below the navel... There was a term that came up alot, in reference to specific energy points being discussed. It was 'gateway'. Picking an outside point, like the navel, or three or four fingers below the navel, is perhaps referring to gateways that one can 'go in' to then locate the lower dan tien. The dan tien may be realized, or felt, in the same place. The gateway through which one goes may be one , or the other. Also, if I am feeling the lower dan tien, it "has location", as how I feel it. When I am feeling it or focused on it, those reference points seem irrelevant, and not part of that realization, as I am 'inside' feeling the lower dan tien, those points are on the outside somewhere.
I am curious about your statement that you don't visualize very well. Perhaps you do, but you don't recognize it as that, or trust it as that. It can be very subtle. Visualizing something is not necessarily like a strong vision of something. If you are 'remembering' an event, or a person's face, recalling a trip you took, etc.,,,something happens in your mind/thoughts. I am sure you can do that.. It is a subtle vision of these things. That is the same viewer you use to see that energy pill,etc.. As you constantly revisit the experience, your inner vision gives you impressions, or ideas, about that image. It might not be clear. Almost like suggestions, or a small glimpse of something. The impression may be very easy for you to overlook in its subtlety, or first impression. One may think of an image that comes to mind as self created, not what is actually there to see. I have often experienced affirmations of that image "I thought of", as actually being correct, and really existing, the way I first perceived it as a subtle impression.

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Gallen,

Your response suggests we might enjoy a long discussion on a lazy afternoon someday! The stuff about visualizing alone could go on and on.

I do visualize, however it is not my primary representational system. Plus it doesn't meet my desire for how it "should" be. I want and expect it to be like a dream experience. I have experienced that vision like quality as a conscious choice but it is very rare and not something I can will.

I love the gateway concept for the dantien. I have been playing with that and have found it much more powerful. I think of it as an energy portal. A way for consciousness to leave my conceptual world and directly experience the energetic universe. Which is all I'm really after anyway. :^)

I have also taken your advise and made changes in my practice. Unstuck myself. So far the best has been outside at night with the stars, the trees, the breeze, the river, the sounds, and they all merge...

Michael


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Michael,
That lazy afternoon discussion sounds good.
I think you are in a good place, and at a nice level, for what that's worth..
I differentiate between visions and inner vision too. They are different, and one seems more rare of an event. Both can be stimulated or heightened by an ongoing practice of qigong meditation and exercise.
The third eye area is a dan tien, just like the lower dan tien and middle. Qigong meditation and visualizations stimulate that area, just like breathing into the heart(middle dan tien), and working from the heart in level II, stimulates that center, and breathing into the lower dan tien(level I) stimulates that center. We all have three dan tiens, there to be developed...In the Taoist model of how the Universe came into being, you see the Wuchi, the emptiness, out of which emerged the yin and yang, and the five elements(traditionally seen as five stars). What has been interesting to me of late, is something called "the three pure ones", or the "triple unity". They are traditionally seen as three emperors, who happen to dwell in three palaces within the human body. The three dan tiens. What is so meaningful to me, is that, according to this Taoist model, these three pure ones seem to have emerged before the yin and yang, if I am correct... The three pure ones, this very early energy that emerged from the Wuchi, is said to have created those five stars/five elements. Figurative imagery aside, what this tells me, or how this feels to me, is very significant, very primordal, and profound. Those three energies emerged prior to the physical universe's creation, and, they are connected to our being, through our three dan tiens. This is a big deal from my perception. Most people familiar with the yin/yang theory, and the five element theory, don't seem to tune into this concept of the three pure ones. Developing all three energy centers seems vital, and very right to me. As you progress in your practice, your focus will shift to different centers, and you will develop all three. The upper dan tien relates to inner vision, intuition, wisdom, truth, understanding, etc...Stimulating that center activates and develops these things. It is not whether or not we have the capability, it is more a matter of what we activate and develop. Inner vision can strengthen, and, visions can become more frequent. 'That isn't the goal', more of a possible side effect or occurance. Everyone is different, I don't present this as a model. I happen to feel something in common with your experience, so I share it. Longer meditations stimulate this growth. Practice "stilling" the mind, where you are spending time with no 'knowledge' in the head, no thinking. See how long you can sit with no thought. It is not easy! Take that stillness into some simple movement. Keep monitoring your "not thinking". Timing some of your meditations with the cycles of the moon. I just had a heightened meditation this last sunday, as it was a new moon. Perhaps, a glimpse forward, and certainly, wonderful energy, a new cycle starting. I hope you stay with the program , and consider travelling to take level III in Minnesota. I think you would benefit greatly from it.

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One more thought...
While you are out in that wonderful space you describe at night. Try this state of non thought. As sounds happen, don't shift to "listen", just hold that emptiness. Experience the breeze, but don't shift to feeling it in a thinking sense..In a sense you do hear and feel,,but it is easy to shift, perhaps through some mind activity, and leave that stillness or emptiness. You can experience all those things, but still base in that stillness. Hard to describe!

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[Gallen writes: Try this state of non thought. As sounds happen, don't shift to "listen", just hold that emptiness. (snip) You can experience all those things, but still base in that stillness. Hard to describe!]

After that outdoor meditation, my wife mentioned to me that she had been out sitting at the picnic table. Although I was not focused on her movements or presence, I could describe to her where she walked, sat and moved as well as some related events like a rain of acorns falling immediately after she left moved away, yet none while she sat. There was a non-focused, global awareness.

Reminds me of the story of "Everyday Zen," where a disciple went to visit the master thinking he was ready for the title "master." The master asked him where and how he placed his umbrella when he entered the house. The disciple couldn't remember which way the handle was pointing and so realized that he was not ready.

The idea being; it's one thing to experience satori, quite another to exist there.

Regarding the "three pure ones," I am not quite willing to accept that nothing became three. The duality emerging from One makes sense to me philosophically and even in terms of modern day physics. What would the relationship of the 3 energies be? If 3 why not 6? However please understand that I am not attached to these theories, I just enjoy the mind play.

Michael


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Aloha,

The lower dantien question comes up frequently, as the "below" which is refered to so much in related forms/work , can be interpreted as toward the feet or toward the center of the body from the navel. Master Lin usually tells a story about putting the question out in his meditation and three of his Masters showed up and pressed into and behindhis navel. From then on he's used "behind" so it's clearer.

It's interesting the number of friends also in the martial arts are almost excited when they hear him saying "behind". It's almost a "coming out of hiding" for them as they start sharing how that's where it's always naturally focused in for them too, but the people and style they've studied under kept saying below (toward the feet).

Much Love, Shawn


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Hi,
Shawn , thanks for sharing that. A good story to refer to when that question comes up again, or just giving the answer! It's behind the naveL.
Michael,
I was just putting forward a Taoist concept out of the same body of information the yin/yang and five element theory comes from. We do have 'three' dan tiens, three energy centers. We are in the universe, the universe is within our bodies. I have enjoyed our dialog Michael, and respect your views. I am going to stop posting on this folder so it doesn't become too long, or become off track. I didn't see an email address for you, so further discourse will have to wait for that long and lazy afternoon chat sometime!

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I found this discussion fascinating. When I tried SFQ for the first time last October I recall the healer I was seeing at that time being concerned that there was too mcuh emphasis on the lower Dantian. Actually I felt intuitively that that was where I needed energy at that time. Furthermore i was impressed by the way that SFQ circulates qi from one place to another - very obviously in the seven steps but also in the small universe meditation. Now I doscover from Gallen that there are three'biggies' and I think actually that was my healers concern. Possibly she puts more emphasis on heart and middle eye chakras and is possibly a little wary of 'wild energy' in the lower dantien because in my case at least it seemed to cause how shall we say the crap to hit the fan.

Incidentally people on this forum obviously read about qigong. Can anybody recommend a suitable book to read?

Kev


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quote:
Originally posted by kev5:

Incidentally people on this forum obviously read about qigong. Can anybody recommend a suitable book to read?

Kev



I found a book by Kenneth Cohen called "The Way of Qigong: The Art and Science of Chinese Energy Healing" This is one of the best books I've found on Qigong. Ken Cohen recommends SFQ somewhere in Learning Strategies promotional literature.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0345421094/qid=1034376391/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_2/102-7837821-2403367?v=glance&n=507846

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Thanks Swingkid I'll have a look for this

Kev


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