Can somebody please recommend a book/s on deeply connecting with people through high quality conversation? I like books with lots of finer distinctions.

And is 'Communication Magic' by Michael Hall the best book for the Meta-Model?

What do you mean by high quality conversation?

Personally, I have found that a high quality conversation come from one thing, and that is this:

Both parties feel safe enough to be very open and feel that if they need to close, then that's ok.

It's pretty simple, really. Be aware of what is going on in yourself and the other person. Be open. Be respectful. If someone senses that you are too needy and demanding of them (like, YOU MUST OPEN UP FOR ME, PLEASE!!) then you are not providing them with an atmosphere in which they can just be themselves. The conversation is conditional upon one of your needs (to have a high quality conversation) being met.

You cannot force the petals of a bud to flower. You must be patient, care for it, and wait appreciatively.

If you are balanced, stable, and open, and there is chemistry, the path will open before you. When someone gets the feeling that they can talk to you about almost anything, they usually will.

We all yearn for deep connection. Be patient and attentive and it'll happen.

Babayada

I liked what you said.

I have a problem of being needy with the girls I really am attracted to.

Coquettishness in a girl - I can't tolerate it, I become needy and desperate, exactly the effect they want.

How do I communicate with a coquette?

I think coquettishness is often practised by the most attractive girls which I find stupidly annoying? I feel useless to get through their shield.

Any ideas?

[This message has been edited by Grant (edited January 15, 2006).]

Babayada

I suppose from your reply the question would be:

How do I make it safe for an attractive girl to be herself? I think there are layers involved here but I can't quite work out what to do.

Do you have any ideas?

Another thing would be how do I not feel intimidated by an attractive girl?

Besides if I want a better relationship with a girl I admire, that is already placing horrible expectations into the relationship.

Any ideas on this?

[This message has been edited by Grant (edited January 15, 2006).]

It might just be my belief system but I'm not really sure what it is?

When I talk to a girl who isn't very attractive I can be my best self and even flirt a little. But when I'm with a girl who is very attractive I lack confidence and a naturalness that automatically brings rich conversation.

Any ideas anybody?

I think it's got to do with keeping my values intact. Somehow seeing through the attractiveness as only a bonus, nothing that important. The point is the girl thinks it's very important that I value it, or does she? Although she probably wants me to value what else she is good at even more.

I'm making so many posts to my own question I think I need a cup of coffee!!!

"It is better to have a hen in the hand than a peacock in the sky."

Have fun ignoring the coquettes. They are worse than worthless. The majority of the time, there is nothing to them. They have spent so much time getting everything for nothing (for the mere fact that they are pretty or can seduce) that they have not learned graciousness or any social skills worth anything. They are usually not smart, creative, or well educated.

They aren't good conversationalists and ultimately have nothing to say except perhaps to talk about their shallow self-serving interests and experiences.

You nailed it on the head when you said that they are annoying.

I am no ladies man, but I know there is plenty of good advice on how to manipulate. A friend of mine uses it, and he swears that it works.

In a nutshell, you ignore attractive women to establish that you are not interested in them, and when you finally do talk to them you pepper your conversation with subtle insults and left handed compliments. After a while the woman starts doubting herself and feeling she needs to prove herself to you. You continue this by giving attention and taking it away.

That's probably what the coquette is doing, naturally, to you.

I find I am more comfortable around attractive women that I get to know and perceive them more as people/friends than a "hot chick."

In my experience, there is a natural level of arousal that happens when you approach a woman you find sexually attractive. If there isn't enough of other associations there to act as buffers, you're running on pure gonad juice and you're probably going to come of as anxious, needy, and or sleazy.

The best advice I was given in this regard, I think, is to look for a friend first and a sexual partner later, if the chemistry leads there.

Babayada, what about an intelligent coquette with many gifts?

I haven't had myself get to know that many coquettes so I can't make a generalization that they aren't intelligent or good conversationalists. I know many coquettes that are intelligent.

My state hasn't been too good with coquettes though. But...

Yesterday I experienced something quite profound for me. I experienced an integration of a learning on meta-states.

From my experience I learnt the following: Unconditional Love is the meta-state of all meta-states. I don't know if it's possible to enter many other constructive meta-states if you first don't have unconditional love as one of your highest meta-states.

What I experienced was a separating of the "irritating" behaviours of my dog with the identity I have of her as a wonderfully lovable animal. I have often got those intermeshed with each other so much so that I couldn't love someone in the same moment they were "irritating" me. My dog's supposedly irritating behaviour turned to a wonderful expression of her very lovable self. I was experiencing the bliss of meta-states that Michael Hall talks about.

I know it's only my dog but the clarity of the state was very profound. Other learnings integrated too, while my dog was "irratating" me the thoughts about coquettes were racing through my mind. I said to myself what if I could detach from a coquette's "annoying" behaviour. The learning dawned on me that many not so pleasant things in this world wouldn't be so frustrating if we didn't get so intermeshed with them.

I imagined relating to a coquette and thoroughly enjoying her attraction to me by noticing her way of attracting me. Without getting hooked into what might not be pleasurable, I thought what a pleasure to see someone so attractive actually likes me. Once you know the game of a coquette, you take a step out and disassociate from the picture. Now you're in charge of yourself again. You see their coquettish efforts as a bonus, because she's trying to show you something. She's trying to tell you she likes you.

Dissociating from "being coquetted" you can discover meta-states of "Hey, she likes me" and you can still love her unconditionally (see her good points) while she "irritates" you.

I now long to integrate these learnings about meta-states into relating with people who's behaviour "irritates" me.

[This message has been edited by Grant (edited January 16, 2006).]

I prefer to write people like that off, personally.

I don't operate under a belief that it is necessary or good for me to love everyone and everything unconditionally.

Good luck with your coquettes.

There's only one coquette really.

She has become too important and valuable to me to do anything but accept her completely.

My discussion of coquettes was to learn how to love one very special one, so that nothing would hinder me.

Her coquettishness might pass away but she won't.

I have everlasting love on my mind.

Although I might seem rather swept away with her, the feelings are integrated with intellectual stability.

Grant,

I think you could learn alot from studying the techniques of pickup artists. Start with the book "The Game" by Neil Strauss and read the www.fastseduction.com FAQ and message forum.

There's alot of misogyny in the community, but also alot of very helpful advice (both for dating and social interraction in general).

Hi Grant
I recomend a book called Non-Violent Communication. Also The Magic of Conflict. Both of those are must-reads for anyone in counseling or social work. The titles seem very contrary, but actualy they are very much in harmony. Another decent one, though very different,is Spiritual Dimensions of Nursing Practice.

Pretty women- yeah, they used to paralise me when I was a much younger man. Funny, I got to a point that I realised that the feelings of love are mine- they have little to do with the other person. So, I can enjoy the atraction, lust, love, whatever, without feeling like I want or need it to be reciprocated.

What freedom! When I do not feel I need or want love to be returned, I can just enjoy the love. And others are free to love, or not, me in return. It does not realy matter. The feeling of love is mine to experience, so I enjoy it.

I no longer feel paralised by extreme beauty, I don't find snobbery in any way attractive, and especialy, don't find myself proving or giving or anything else to "win" a persons affection. I already have love, I feel it! Just let the feelings pass through, ebb and flow like the tide and the moon and the seasons.

Funny thing, is I rarely get that coquetishness from pretty girls any more. Could be because I am not comming across as trying to win their attention, so there is nothing there to mainipulate. I just enjoy what I enjoy and that is all.

vitaman

Vitaman,

That's a very good philosophy and attitude, and the responses you get from it make sense.

You aren't sending out a needy vibe, and they respond to the stable, open vibe you give off.

I think coquetteishness is sometimes a defense mechanism.

Yeah- it might be a defense mechanism sometimes. Though I think it is often a way to get what they want...

I do get women who flirt, though, and I flirt and tease too. I do not see that as coquetishsness, though, because I do not feel like I am being manipulated. I have nothing invested in it other than playful communication! (If I think someone is after something, I check it out or move on, depending on the situation...I want open and honest communication.)

I think what freed me is when I stopped wanting and just enjoyed being.

vitaman.

Yeah.

There is definitely a difference between playful flirting and manipulation.

Vita-man and Babayada

Thanks for the book recommendations Vita-man.

You guys have good maps. I want to know more. I need more. I want your maps of the territory.

Trouble is haven't got enough info on your maps, I need books, I need websites, I need resources. Please give me recommendations for resources on relating like you do.

I flippin' tired of not having the best maps for my mental health. The Relationship paraliminal isn't enough. I need more. I wish Learning Strategies would develop a course on Relating with mental, emotional, and spiritual well-being in mind.

I need a map for mental health.

Please help me guys!

What exactly are you asking for here?

A map for your mental health? My mental health isn't all that great. I have my own challenges and what not.

A lot of what I consider improvement over the way I used to be, however, just comes with age. Some kinds of learning are not sensitive to conscious intention. Some things are just really deep in your personality and you've got to hit your head against the wall enough times before something in you takes notice and learns.

I consider a lot of this self-improvement stuff naive and over-optimistic. Sometimes the only thing that can help you learn is time and experience. That's my map.

My advice is simply this: accept yourself the best you can and focus on enjoying life. It looks to me that you do a lot of comparisons between yourself and some ideals you've cooked up and the disparity between them makes you frustrated, miserable.

This sort of mental activity is probably the biggest area of challenge and potential improvement for you. I think if you succeed in learning here, a lot of this self-help stuff will go by the wayside and you'll be more interested in living and enjoying your life directly.

There is a lot of pain involved just fumbling around in the dark.

Natural Brilliance does help when you don't have any maps and know what you want.

But my learning is slow and one of my worst enemies is critizing me for it.

My learning has been important to me, she comes a long and says that's no good.

So I'm feeling bad about my own self-managed learning. It's like she's critizing who I am.

I feel like an idiot. She is a very "honourable" person in society. I feel that she treated me badly!

It's like she's my judge and she says the way it SHOULD be done is like this!!!

I have tried for years to get where I am and she says "NO WAY!"

[This message has been edited by Grant (edited January 21, 2006).]

The above woman is not the coquette.

I'm talking about a psychologist who implanted an NLP pattern to turn me into a living breathing hypocritical idiot.

I feel like turning away from God now, because she Manipulated me into becoming "Righteous". Righteousness I did not choose! Righteousness I did not want!

I want honest righteousness, not the freaking righteousness she gave me!

Milton Erickson once talked about a woman he described as a pathological liar.

He told his students the story of her visits, her condition, and its treatment. He started by saying she came in and said that she was late because she barely was able to get on the last train going to Phoenix, Arizona.

Erickson asked his students if they could figure out how it was he knew that this woman was a pathological liar. They guessed this and that, but no one could figure it out.

After they had exhausted their guesses, he looked at them and smiled. He said, "She said that she was late because she took the last train to Phoenix, Arizona. There is no LAST train to Phoenix, Arizona."

It looks to me like you have a considerable amount of trouble with women. Is that true? If so, you might want to see a male therapist about your problems in this area.

"Loving What Is" by Bryron Katie. Good read. Her process is important to do. It's part of the Abundance for Life course. However you can go much further with it by visiting her site www.theworks.org Download and work through the judge your neighbour worksheet. And work through the questions. Look for her recordings to get an idea how to put the process to work.

It's important that you take pen to paper and give yourself 30 to 45 minutes to work through this issue you have with that woman. It's good if you can have someone help you do the. I know it's very easy to write an answer and forget about it... however if you have a partner to work with they will ask you "Is that true? How do you know that is true?" The partner can help point out when you've just contradicted yourself. I've manage to help someone using MSN. It's much easier to do on your own when you've had the Oh My Goodness... that it... experience.

So if you do the work on your own write the question is that true and how do I know it's true on the turn around questions.

Another book you might find useful is "The Journey" by Arnold Patent The Feeling Exercise is explained in that one.

I think it was Eleanor Roosevelt who said something to the effect of 'No one can make you feel bad unless you choose to let them'.

Who is to judge where you should be in life or what you should be doing? Consider the following.

=========================
A young, new preacher was walking with an older, more seasoned preacher in the garden one day and feeling a bit insecure about what God had for him to do, he was inquiring of the older preacher. The older preacher walked up to a rosebush and handed the young preacher a rosebud and told him to open it without tearing off any petals.

The young preacher looked in disbelief at the older preacher and was trying to figure out what a rosebud could possibly have to do with his wanting to know the WILL OF GOD for his life and for his ministry. Because of his high respect for the older preacher, he proceeded to TRY to unfold the rose, while keeping every petal intact...It wasn't long before he realized how impossible it was to do so.

Noticing the younger preacher's inability to unfold the rosebud while keeping it intact, the older preacher began to recite the following poem...

Unfolding the Rose.

It is only a tiny rosebud,
A flower of God's design;
But I cannot unfold the petals
With these clumsy hands of mine.

The secret of unfolding flowers
Is not known to such as I.
GOD opens this flower so sweetly,
When in my hands they fade and die.

f I cannot unfold a rosebud,
This flower of God's design,
Then how can I think I have wisdom
To unfold this life of mine?

So I'll trust in Him for His leading
Each moment of every day.
I will look to him for His guidance
Each step of the pilgrim way.

The pathway that lies before me,
Only my Heavenly Father knows.
I'll trust Him to unfold the moments,
Just as He unfolds the rose.

{I regret I do not know who the author is)

Alex

Okay, I have had enough of lies, I want to speak my truth, I have had it with hypocrisy, I'm up to my eyeballs myself with it, and there are many people who are up to their eyeballs in it to!!

To always think of a manipulation situation as having an offender and a victim is not an accurate map. NLP uses the Milton Model which is in it's essence sneaky! To say you don't like NLP because it's manipulative is being extremely dishonest with yourself. Saying it's not manipulative when in the right hands is also a lie.

To manipulate someone in order to teach them not to manipulate and then carry on with their own manipulations with others, is DISGUSTING! It's OPPRESSING! I myself am tired of putting up walls against using this resource myself. Besides by the nature of life I'm using it already. The psychologist actually did a pattern of a manipulative nature in order that I stop manipulating, but she continues with her manipulation as usual, I find that just a little bit painful to accept.

Preachers are some of the biggest manipulators. To reason an argument so that it slips in easily, what is that. To write a freaking letter for donations to charity, believe me I have seen one or two and they are not writing to "victims", and they themselves are not "offenders".

Nature is manipulative. A peacock waves it's feathers around in order to mate with a peahen.

See it all depends on how dark is your light. If you are pure in heart and like a child, even dark is light.

I need an HONEST model of relating, that is FUNCTIONAL.

For a psychologist to manipulate me in order to stop manipulating, I think you can call that hypocritical!

I realize there are levels of light. I have a mental illness which might just not make my mind function at the highest levels of light YET. But who says I can miss a step. And who says we are righteous, only those who are righteous can claim they are not selfish. God is the only Righteous One! Nobody else is righteous! We can only want to be righteous! We all must succumb to functionality, between now and perfection. We need a way of relating in the meantime. We need to be honest above all. Being honest can save people a lot of pain. We need to speak our truth and quit hiding it.

If relating depends on integrity then I'm going to be honest about my manipulation. There's no such thing as total integrity either! Nobody can achieve it nobody!

We are forever talking about ideals, and not living in the now as we are.

The word manipulative has got very bad vibes due to society's dishonesty. The bad vibes are promoted by those most manipulative but dishonest with it.

I know a girl who has probably been told she's manipulative. She said to me she's manipulative, so you know what I say to her "Try harder to be better at it!"...because you certainly haven't won me over! She said she flirts too much, but I think she hasn't practised enough, just like myself.

I need to learn to be smoother! Wouldn't you agree from this post itself! I'm sure you can see a lot of undiplomatic-ability. I have a book on friendship and in the same book they condemn diplomacy they speak of being persuasive. Persuasion is manipulative. Selling is. Adverts are. People are.

The Human Race cannot survive without some manipulation. There are far greater evils than manipulation. I'd rather say I manipulate quite a lot than fool those humble beings who are oppressed by those who are dishonest about their manipulative nature.

Babayada are you being a pathological lier about your own manipulativeness. I see you used a metaphor to explain something. Quite a manipulative trick in itself.

We are all liers. WE can never be totally honest. We are all scared of our truths and the truth.

A minister once said to me the hardest virtue is honesty.

Sorry for being dishonest!

I think the Minster could have said the hardest virtue is being honest with yourself And to me it is just as true or even truer.

Alex

When I call someone manipulative I am not saying that they are an ordinary human being who is trying to influence others just like everyone else.

I specify that this or that person is manipulative because they are more into controlling others than respecting them. That is generally the case, I think, when someone says "so and so is manipulative."

There is nothing wrong with flirting. There's nothing wrong with learning how to be persuasive. You can persuade someone respectfully. You can be transparent and persuasive at the same time.

Influence and persuasion does not require deception.

Was I using a metaphor to try and get something into your unconscious mind without your conscious knowledge? Or was I using a metaphor to clarify a point?

Not everything is done from the point of view of NLP. When trying to communicate, I will often use analogies because I think they help clarify in ways that other forms of explanation don't. When someone has trouble understanding something you can say, "Well, think of it this way, it's like a car..." Or you can talk about similar experiences you have had.

Is that a sneaky, super secret, triple embedded, hypnotically looped technique? Or is it just something intended to explain something?

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited January 18, 2006).]

I have to agree with Babayada- that is all communication is, by nature, influential.

I work with a wide variety of clients, some of them speak only basic English, others could discuss Shakespeare or argue philosophy. I use metaphore, illustration, humor, everything I can think of at my disposal to communicate.

To me, it is about intention. I am not going to discuss the fine points of ethics and ecology, but If you intend to communicate an idea, or effect a positive and ecological change and find a way to succeed, great. If you can do it elegantly,artfuly, or more effectively, even better.

If you intend to be sneaky and muddy, with only your own gain in mind, then people will eventualy feel icky, or figure you out, or it will just come back and bite you on the ass somehow. Karma.

An example, I know a woman who habitualy reframes everything, to the point of blurring reality. It took me a long while to realise how dangerous she is, that is it purposeful fogging, and I refuse to do business with her or her associates. I make no referals, and will even go out of my way to point people toward other businesses.

Reframing can be used to keep yourself and others resourceful, and it can also be uesd to the opposite effect.

I bet I am not the only one to decide not to do business with these people...they are losing many thousands of dollars per year because one of them is anti-transparent.

vitaman

just one other thing- defining "high quality conversation"

Is it when you have a realy good time laughing and teasing? Or when you have a deep exploration of your spiritual life? Or perhaps when you creatively colaborate on a brilliant plan? Maybe discovering the workings of the cosmos or describing the wiring of a stereo to a stuck friend? How about "pass the salt please." or "Have you seen my keys?" or "the portion of the reciepts that are tax deductible is seveteen dollars" or "Ooh, Baby, I love it when you do that...yeah, that..."

I think any of those things could be high quality conversation...in context. Having the flexibility to do any of these (and appropriately in context) is key.

vitaman

Oh man, the ones about the salt and the keys and the finances really made me laugh.

I am with you on all the other ones being good conversational material.

[This message has been edited by babayada (edited January 19, 2006).]

Yeah, next time my accountant asks me for reciepts, I am going to say "Ooh baby, I love when you do that..."

blush

vitaman

Vita-man

I agree with the point of having a good intention before you influence someone.

I feel that you can win someone over if it's a win/win.

A salesman gets someone's attention to notice a possible win. Sometimes people have walls up that prevent themselves from seeing the good deal, you say "Hey, look what you're missing!" Which might seem quite selfish to those who are shy.

Psychocybernetics, says if you are shy you should try an aggressive approach, because probably they would then land themselves as more assertive.

For a self-effacing person to learn something selfish like manipulation, would probably land them with win/win skills.

But it's different things for different people.